''Dear'' Sacrifice community...

...or should I say ''dead'' Sacrifice community?

I recently noticed a really big problem, and it's not only me. Do you ask yourselves why the server is always empty?

Well you can think about many things, all acceptable reasons.
-It's an old game, no one plays it anymore.
-Only a few people know about the new SacPro server.
-It takes a lot for an unexperienced user to properly forward ports and play.

Ok these are all good reasons. But there is another reason that maybe shows up why this community has always been nearly dead and somehow squalid.

The only users in chat log are PRO players who play like gods, keep playing this game for years and, most of all, they just play among themselves.

There is no way to keep up with pros and play decently so most of the people decide to uninstall game or just don't play on your crappy server (do u remember hamachi?).
So I did because I decided to stop playing on your server and just use my hamachi channel, recruit people and play for fun.

You may reply:
-Why?
-I don't care
-It's not true
-Other stuff

If you want this community to play with passion and become bigger, you should stop to care about the server and ports for a second.

In years of playing with sacrifice I've never found:
-An Internet SERIOUS, COMPETITIVE GUIDE written by pros to teach noobs the basic tactics and play decently online;
-Any pro to have patience and teach me because they likely prefer to play the same, identical matches among their little pro group.
It's years that I see in chat log darkmoon, flummoxes, Mellows, astaroth, tree hugger and still they continue playing the same maps (ferry and fork in the road and maybe 2 other maps) without doing ANYTHING to help this community grow in members and fun.
Everytime i play with them 1v1, i lose immediately because they play much better and know the 2 maps mentioned before as their pockets. When the game is over, the rematch is identical and after that not a single suggestion: ggs cya. **** Has logged out.
I say fuck.

What about writing a f***ing guide for noobs?
What about having patience and teaching them, or u like to continue playing the same games in the same maps with the same 6 players online?
Will anyone of you do any of these things?

Till the things don't change, I won't log anymore in this dead IRC chat: it's really sad to see the same people of years ago to use chat for spamming racism (i won't mention any name).
We are here for playing and having fun, not to judge other people, especially in terms of country and ethnic group.

So, please, if you really want to help this game/community and give more fun to yourselves and to new players, the server manteinance it's not the problem. It's just the purpose of playing this fantastic game.
I won't uninstall Sacrifice because of the reasons stated above. It's great. And, actually, there is also a little hope because Steam is recently selling the game and maybe it will host sac on a private server for its community.

Thanks for reading. Gnome

Hm, quite a lot to think about Sac and online play. Since you posted a little after we played (and yes, I left with saying „ggs cya”), I feel inclined to have my say, espacially because at some points you seem to feel the same way like I did months back.

As I see it, you are facing the same problems like anyone else new to online Sac: it’s tough. Playing against brainless AI foes is not nearly as hard as against experienced players. I could name at least 6-8 players only in the last few months who came playing, but never returned after a number of lost games—even though some of them played decently for newbies. I think when you talk about the reasons of this game being abandoned you leave out at least one: Sac is an all-or-nothing game: if you get desecrated, the number of your kills and stuff is hardly a consolation. It’s not like some shooter where you might call a lost match with a score of 15-20 a good game. In Sac getting beaten is VERY frustrating, even for players who call the game a favourite. If it is any help, I can tell you that since I have played this game I lost about 70-80% of all the games I played…but that 20-30% tastes sooooo sweet.

You are absolutely right about that some of these new players who just lose their courage might stick with Sac, if someone explained them what is it they are doing wrong, and how can they do it better. But in this, my experience is different: there ARE pros who are willing to explain basics. When I started playing online (about half year ago), there was always someone telling me what I should have done in the game.
But. YOU NEED TO ASK!!!!! Many players might give you tips, but not without you asking them (it’s just that probably nobody wants to play the wiseguy, unless they know the other is really listening).

Sure, some ppl will tell you „You lost because you played like crap”— or more likely, some others are just too lazy to help, but they are not the majority. Just find the more helpful ones, and keep in mind that you dont need to know everything at once: if you ask, focus on the game you just played—Sac skills definitely don’t come in pill form. Also, try to observe when you have a chance. Personally I find it almost as much fun as playing, and one can benefit from watching better players.

A guide however, might be a bit too hard. I guess the right strategy depends on gods, the map itself, starting level and a lot of other stuff. A huge piece of work, and I don’t think any vet would have the patience to write something detailed enough, espacially because (after the basics) most of it comes easier from experience. Again, keep playing and keep asking, it may get you far.

The server. I don’t know about Hamachi, never tried it myself, but I’m not sure splitting the playing community is a good idea, with so few active players. Maybe, if it works, and changing between it and Dog’s server is simple enough, it can be a chance for players who are having problems with ports, but I dont really have an idea.

As for racist spam: I won’t mention any names either, but yes, Astaroth is a moron (oops—was that a name?). So what? It’s easy to ignore him and his crap. And he is a special case, really, even the more cocky players are usually civil enough…well, most of them anyway.

So if you want to ask about strategies, do it, either in the lobby, or here in the forum. And don’t care if you feel your questions are stupid, or the answers may be obvious to others. This way you can help out newbies too.

Lormus wrote:It takes a lot for an unexperienced user to properly forward ports and play

You're absolutely right about this. I myself feel uncomfortable having to tell newbs who just patched that there's another roadblock to playing. This shouldn't have to be, and no one wants it like this, but it is for the time being. You have to know something though: we are on Dog's server because of a huge crash on our old one that left us all scattered in an internet ocean. Dog's solution was the fastest and easiest way to get us all back together, so try to at least have some sort of understanding for that.

Yes I remember Hamachi; how could I not, you only preached it to us constantly The effort that would have to be involved in switching and the disorganization that would result would not be worth it. Not only that, but we switched servers recently anyways, we can't keep doing it every few months. I do appreciate you getting some players together on Hamachi though. Hopefully we can all combine soon.

Which leads me to my next point, Sac Planet. This old site that brought the community together is being revitalized thanks to Annihilator and Tank. What i'm hoping for is to redirect newbs from the old GS server to SacPlanet, where they can introduce themselves and find an easily accessible, non-lobby based Sac hang out. From there they can patch and port up with an easy guide from the forum. So don't think that we're being idle here; we've always been discussing change to Sac. It doesn't happen as often as some would like, but the ideas are always out there.

About there being only pro players who play exclusively amongst themselves, yes it's true, but this is more because of the limitations of Sac than actually not wanting to play with new players. You've got to realize that when 2v2 is the main mode of play, balance issues are a big deal. You and your ally have to both be equally competent in order to play a good game. Sac is a frustrating game, and when your partner doesn't know how to play well online it gets even more frustrating. 2v3 I think is among the best ways for a new player to get into play, and while admittedly a lot of times you won't find players up for something like that, sometimes you will, and they end up being really fun. Another way is to observe; while you're not actually playing, you are watching an exciting match and picking up on how the game works.

Guides will not help newbs to play better. Strategies are very specific and involve a lot of variables, like map, gods, etc. Any sort of manual on Sac tactics would be extremely complex and unappealing to newbs. If anything is going to make a newb uninstall Sac, have them look at a guide to Sac strategies, it would be larger than War and Peace. Teaching a new player personally is even harder since it takes a lot of time, and again, the many variables just make it impractical. There's a difference between being a patient player and being impractical. The best way to learn Sac is from experience; this isn't easy of course, but there are opportunities.

Timezones don't help. You are in a timezone where the players that you will generally see are the Europeans. The specific ones that you have mentioned aren't the friendlist of players; some of them are stiff, racial, and just downright uncomfortable to be around if you're new and don't know them (I mean this in the friendliest way guys ) The euros you haven't mentioned, the ones who do drop by around the best time in your timezone, are friendly and willing to play with you. The best games to play fall around the time when it's really late in your timezone, when more Americans arrive. A lot of them are nice and we have a good time playing. I understand this is inconvenient for you, but this is how an old online game is going to work. If you find players on Hamachi that play whenever it's convenient for you and you have fun, good for you, maybe that's a suggestion for players who can't play late.

Please don't judge the entire Sac community based on those aforementioned players that you got offended by. With a small community set in one lobby, you're going to come across players like that more easily. Most of us, including Dog and myself, don't like it when they start talking complete bullshit, and that's why we personally make sure we do something about it when it happens.

Also, don't think that what you're bringing up is new. All of us know about what you mention. Some of us want to change it, others don't care, but it is understood. Like I said before, change is going to happen, especially soon with Sac Planet, so look out for that.

Finally, don't be so antagonized by all of this. You've got to understand that Sac is an old game, with no official support anymore. It's not easy fixing all of these problems; it's an accomplishment that there's a solid community at all, and that's what I love about Sac, the actual players. They've provided me with great times and great laughs.

If there's anything here that peaks my interest most, it's this Hamachi community you've got going. Perhaps I can send European players who can't play late there; it'll also be like a "newbie server".

I really appreciate your replies to my thread since they are quite exhaustive and they show that some part of the community is not dead.
With "not dead" i just mean that you care about my recent bad feelings.
In particular, the replies mean to me that there are still good players/people around who are ready to discuss on the forum and admit the community problems, if there are any (in this case, the answer is: "yes, there are some problems").

What I've appreciated most is that you noticed too some of the problems I mentioned and you are working on it to find a solution(I hope these are not only words but, things like the return of SacPlanet forum, are real, incoming solutions).

I think that the return of a solid game forum like what SacrificePlanet was, with many utilies about game issues, ports and even strategies would be a cool solution to bring this community some more interest in relationing with each other.

Thanks, Gnome.

Ah, last thing. The point of my main thread was not to steal community members/players from this forum and chat log to bring them to my hamachi channel. I just wanted to write clearly that I won't likely play other games in SacPro's server till the lobby situation (alongside with the players in it) remains the same.

Hmm, I have honestly retreated on-line gameplay of Sac. and am playing Sac. through Hamachi with 3 of my friends, including my brother.

If a superior here will insist on having Hamachi rule, do notify me!

I have been playing this game for 3 years now. Wow its been a long time... And I tell ya. Its been a mixture of happy moments and sad moments. Joyful moments and then frustrating moments. I was booted from games as a newb. I was told to give up. I was laughed at, disdaned and humiliated. BUT MOST OF ALL, I was kept out of vet games.

I didn't give up though.

I kept playing until I made my way to the top and even into vet games. I became a vet killer over time. Many players now know who I am. And I am a force to be reckoned with.

NO, the pros and vets didn't help me. I basically had to train myself. I studied sac like a textbook.

I am known as one of the best scenario makers in sacrifice. Perhaps, I should make a scenario for training new players online. Like an extension to the SACRIFICE IN-GAME TUTORIAL.

My tip to you is, don't give up and don't give in. Only the strong survive here.

Dred wrote:The best way to learn Sac is from experience; this isn't easy of course, but there are opportunities.

This explains my entire post.

Light

Well, answering to my topic (if you know the answer) might be a good way to start reviving the Sac community